Post by Jon VolkoffPost by GreenDogPost by Jon VolkoffGD: You are overlooking the fact that at the last judgment, the elect
in Christ will not only be accounted righteous by justification, they
will be righteous in their persons, having been sanctified by Christ
to sin no more.
"Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom
of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:43)
Not at all. Innocence denotes guilt having NEVER been present in the
first place. We are born in sin, so this is impossible for us.
Innocence has the basic meaning of freedom from guilt. One particular
usage of the word is what you just mentioned. But it need not always
carry that exact meaning. It can also have the meaning of legal guilt
having been removed by substitutionary, vicarious atonement.
First, let me say that you have indeed given much to mull over. Thank
you.
But I must say that I disagree with the assertion that 'innocence' has
the meaning of "legal guilt having been removed by substitutionary,
vicarious atonement." If the case of the accused is one of true
innocence, then no atonement is necessary. For example, let's say that
O.J. was found guilty of murder, but due to some legal nuance, that
O.J.'s cousin (or anyone else for that matter) would be allowed to
take O.J.'s place in prison, or the death chamber, as the case may
have been. This would not have removed O.J.'s guilt, merely the
penalty that should have been imposed on Him was transferred to
someone else. He would still BE guilty. We all stand guilty before
God. None of us are innocent, hence our need for a savior.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them
who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the
world may become guilty before God.
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one
point, he is guilty of all.
All Christianity stems from this truth. You must first admit that you
are a sinner, and that you are incapable of helping yourself, and then
come to Christ and believe on him, and become a new creature.
Now, you make an interesting point in saying that Gene Scott's 'Jesus
Glasses' analogy is erroneous in that God sees things as they are, and
that that view is never distorted. You are also quite right (though I
had never before looked at it quite this way) that it is not enough to
be SEEN by God as like Christ, but that we must actually BE like
Christ, and this is our 'blessed hope', is it not?
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what
we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as
he is pure.
Titus 2
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the
great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Let me quote again from the Article 37 of the Belgic Confession from
which you previously quoted.
<excerpt>
And therefore the consideration of this judgment, is justly terrible
and dreadful to the wicked and ungodly, but most desirable and
comfortable to the righteous and elect: because then their full
deliverance shall be perfected, and
there they shall receive the fruits of their labor and trouble which
they have borne. Their innocence shall be known to all, and they shall
see the terrible vengeance which God shall execute on the wicked, who
most cruelly persecuted, oppressed and tormented them in this world;
and who shall be convicted by the testimony of their own consciences,
and being immortal, shall be tormented in that everlasting fire, which
is prepared for the devil and his angels.
</excerpt/>
1) "And therefore the consideration of this judgment, is justly
terrible and dreadful to the wicked and ungodly, but most desirable
and comfortable to the righteous and elect:.."
Even though the coming of our Lord and savior will be desirable, I'm
not at all convinced that it will be all that comfortable, even for
believers, for we all have areas in our lives where we know that we
could do better, or circumstances in our individual pasts which, if
given the opportunity to do over, we would have done differently. To
believe that this will be 'comfortable' is to be far too confident in
one's self.
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is
among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think;
but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the
measure of faith.
Luke 17
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are
commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that
which was our duty to do.
Luke 18
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves
that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and
the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee,
that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or
even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as
his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be
merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than
the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he
that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
2) "...and there THEY shall receive the fruits of THEIR labor and
trouble which THEY have borne..." (emphasis mine.)
I thought we were Christ's workmanship? I thought He bore our burdens
for us? I thought the fruits of this life are His? This statement
above brings us into the spotlight while eclipsing Christ. If this
were worded "and there the Body of Christ shall receive the fruits of
the Body of Christ's labor and trouble which the Body of Christ has
borne" I would have no quarrel with it.
Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good
works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Isaiah 53
4b Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
1 Corinthians 10
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.
Revelation 4
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for
thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were
created.
Yes, there is a reward which we will receive, but this is the result
of God's mercy and not the result of our own efforts.
3) "...Their innocence shall be known to all,..."
I don't think using a 'restrictive' definition here is erroneous.
Innocence means not guilty. Innocence means that no substitutionary,
vicarious atonement is even needed. "Their justification shall be
known at all" would be correct. "Their 'elected-ness' shall be known
to all" would be correct, but innocence? This can never be.
Now, it is true that if we are in Christ then we have the blessed hope
of being as He is when He returns to the Earth. That is, we will be
holy, pure, sinless, etc., even as He is; but to extend that hope to
'innocence' cannot be any more than it is that we can hope to have
existed in holiness from eternity past as He has done, or to have been
the result of a virgin birth as He was, or to have NEVER sinned as He
never has. We can become holy, righteous, and justified, yes, but we
can never become innocent.
Jesus was the only innocent man to have ever lived.
Matthew 12
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Jesus was the guiltless one being referred to in this passage.
Matthew 27
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.
And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
After the devil had left Judas even He recognized this truth.
Matthew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a
tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the
multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see
ye to it.
Was Pilate innocent? Hardly!
4)"...and they shall see the terrible vengeance which God shall
execute on the wicked, who most cruelly persecuted, oppressed and
tormented them in this world; and who shall be convicted by the
testimony of their own consciences, and being immortal, shall be
tormented in that everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil
and his angels."
This seems just a little too gleeful here, as if they can't wait to
see them roast.
Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in
the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and
live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O
house of Israel?
Proverbs 24
17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be
glad when he stumbleth:
18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his
wrath from him.
Luke 9
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord,
wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume
them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner
of spirit ye are of.
- Greendog
Post by Jon VolkoffTo demonstrate this, I will refer you to Webster's dictionary, and to
a concordance to look up occurrences of "innocence" and its variants,
noting how many times it is used in connection with saved saints.
I will quote just one such passage where Christ uses an equivalent
word.
"But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." (Matthew 12:7)
[anaitios, Strong's 338: guiltless, innocent]
Post by GreenDogJustification is a different matter altogether. Justification is being
treated as innocent, and being perceived (through the spectacles of
Christ) as being as perfect as He is, but our lack of innocence, hence
our need of a savior, remains intact.
Untrue. We are not treated as innocent, though we really are not.
That would be to make God declare a lie, which is unthinkable.
Nobody puts spectacles in front of God's face so He can see differently
what is not true in fact. This is a false idea you have retained from
Gene Scott. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
We are constituted innocent by Christ, in that our guilt is removed.
Our debt of sin is paid in full. We really and truly stand as
innocent in God's sight because of Christ's righteousness imputed to
our accounts.
Post by GreenDogWhat I see written above is that you think that we will be accounted
as righteous through the finished work of Christ, and then we will
actually BE righteous through our own efforts. No Sir, being accounted
as righteous and BEING righteous are both merely facets of one and the
same thing (namely justification), and both are the result of God's
mercy through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and nothing else.
Don't quite know how you got "through our own efforts", for did I not
say "having been sanctified by Christ to sin no more"?
While I do acknowledge that God has appointed means to advance the
work of temporal sanctification, that is not the subject here. Final
sanctification and glorification is, in which work we play absolutely
no part. And yes, justification, sanctification, and glorification
all flow from Christ's cross as the only ground of our salvation.
Post by GreenDogTo claim innocence is to declare you no longer need a savior! To hope
for a future innocence is to hope for an existence without Christ and
to say in thine heart that...
Isaiah 14
13 ...I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the
stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the
most High.
Bad plan!
As mentioned, your claim is based on an overly restricted definition
of the word "innocence." Do a little more study and report back.
Thanks for the discussion.
Jon V.